Detection - Ships, Boats, and Vessels - General Discussion - Maritime Security Forum

Maritime Security Forum Home

Maritime Security Forum > General Discussion > Ships, Boats, and Vessels > Detection

Announcement

Join today! You need to be a registered member in order to view and participate in the forums. As a guest you are only seeing a small portion of what this site has to offer. Registration is free and open to all who have an interest in Maritime Security. We look forward to your participation!

Becoming a registered member is quick and easy. You are not required to reveal any personal information. However, we will need you to provide a valid email address. Just click the register link to get started.

Moderated by: David

Printer Friendly

Detection

Author	Post

Posted: 29 December 2009 12:26

Nick
MarSec Member

Joined:	29 December 2009
Location:	United Kingdom
Posts:	4
Status:	Offline

Hi, I was wondering if anyone knew how the ships are detected by pirates? Is it through radio, RADAR, are the journeys logged somewhere or is it just visually?

I would be interested in your comments.

Best regards,

Nick

____________________
Nick

Posted: 29 December 2009 12:46

David
Plank Owner

Joined:	18 November 2009
Location:	Fort Lauderdale, Florida USA
Posts:	112
Status:	Offline

Nick wrote: Hi, I was wondering if anyone knew how the ships are detected by pirates? Is it through radio, RADAR, are the journeys logged somewhere or is it just visually?

I would be interested in your comments.

Best regards,

Nick

Nick,

Welcome to the forum. Great question. The pirates generally rely on the fact that the ships are utilizing well known shipping lanes and are therefore predictable. They also utilize radio relays from outpost vessels and other craft that are plying the waters.

The tactic of using motherships may provide the pirates with RADAR capabilities. Several photos of suspected "motherships" do show that some have RADAR antennae mounted.

Hopefully some of the other members will join in and share their knowledge as well.

Cheers,

____________________
David
USCG Licensed Master (1985 - current)
USSF (Retired)
==============================

Posted: 29 December 2009 13:02

Nick
MarSec Member

Joined:	29 December 2009
Location:	United Kingdom
Posts:	4
Status:	Offline

Hi David,

Thank you for your response. The reason for my question was to see if visually secure lighting might help avoid detection. I suppose even the shipping lanes are pretty large so the final detection could be with the eye?

I would be interested in opinions.

Thank you.

____________________
Nick

Posted: 29 December 2009 13:22

David
Plank Owner

Joined:	18 November 2009
Location:	Fort Lauderdale, Florida USA
Posts:	112
Status:	Offline

Nick wrote: Hi David,

Thank you for your response. The reason for my question was to see if visually secure lighting might help avoid detection. I suppose even the shipping lanes are pretty large so the final detection could be with the eye?

I would be interested in opinions.

Thank you.

Nick,

Absolutely. If the ships are willing to run "dark" at night it would give them a degree of protection. The same way ships tried to reduce their visibility to German U-boats in WW II.

Running blacked out should not pose any operational problems to most ships due to their electronics and Nav equipment capabilities, night vision devices, thermal viewers, etc.

However, the pirates will likely have some night vision technology available to them, possibly on the motherships. The Russian Gen I and Gen II night vision has been available on the open market for some time, and with the amount of money the pirates are making it would not be a stretch of the imagination to envision them having such capabilities.

However, I do agree with the tactic of running blacked out at night. If by "visually secure" lighting you mean shielded lights and low level lighting I think this is a viable option as well.

Dave

____________________
David
USCG Licensed Master (1985 - current)
USSF (Retired)
==============================

Posted: 29 December 2009 14:33

Nick
MarSec Member

Joined:	29 December 2009
Location:	United Kingdom
Posts:	4
Status:	Offline

Hi Dave,

Night vision was what I was thinking about the most really. I figure they probably have the capability to purchase Russian versions - as you say they have the money. Lighting can be made visible to the naked eye in accordance with the COLREGs but limited to the NVG response so maybe that would be at least some help in detection avoidance.

Thanks for your thoughts.

All the best

____________________
Nick

Posted: 29 December 2009 17:09

Archangel
Plank Owner

Joined:	27 November 2009
Location:	Afghanistan
Posts:	19
Status:	Offline

Nick wrote: Hi Dave,

Night vision was what I was thinking about the most really. I figure they probably have the capability to purchase Russian versions - as you say they have the money. Lighting can be made visible to the naked eye in accordance with the COLREGs but limited to the NVG response so maybe that would be at least some help in detection avoidance.

Thanks for your thoughts.

All the best

This raises an interesting question: Would a vessel master be willing to run dark-ship in violation of the collision regulations (COLREGS) in order to make his ship less visible to very real threat?

Remember, in high risk transit areas extra watches are required, so running dark-ship, along with all the electronic nav aids, would not be a problem from a navigation point of view (for the dark ship), only from a legal point of view. It is a question of the lesser of two evils: risk certain detection by pirates, or risk collision.

I bet there are more than a few ships running dark near the Seychelles and on Indian Ocean approach to the Gulf of Aden. I know I would.

____________________
Archangel
Stop Global Whining

Posted: 29 December 2009 17:17

David
Plank Owner

Joined:	18 November 2009
Location:	Fort Lauderdale, Florida USA
Posts:	112
Status:	Offline

Nick wrote: Hi Dave,

Night vision was what I was thinking about the most really. I figure they probably have the capability to purchase Russian versions - as you say they have the money. Lighting can be made visible to the naked eye in accordance with the COLREGs but limited to the NVG response so maybe that would be at least some help in detection avoidance.

Thanks for your thoughts.

All the best

Nick,

I see what you are driving at. But it would be difficult to maintain COLREG compliance (see Rule 22 below).

However, I am going to research the ISPS/SOLAS and High Risk Transit regs to see if masters are given any leeway to run dark...offhand I doubt it. Back in WWII during convoy and coastal ops ships were mandated to run dark in certain circumstances.

Best regards,
Dave

RULE 22
VISIBILITY OF LIGHTS

The lights prescribed in these Rules shall have an intensity as specified in Section 8 [Intl] of Annex I to these [Regulations / Rules] so as to be visible at the following minimum ranges:
(a) In vessels of 50 meters or more in length:

a masthead light, 6 miles;
a sidelight, 3 miles;
a towing light, 3 miles;
a white red, green or yellow all-round light, 3 miles.
a special flashing light, 2 miles. [Inld]

(b) In vessels of 12 meters or more in length but less than 50 meters in length;

a masthead light, 5 miles; except that where the length of the vessel is less than 20 meters, 3 miles;
a sidelight, 2 miles;
a sternlight, 2 miles;
a towing light, 2 miles;
a white, red, green or yellow all-round light, 2 miles.
a special flashing light, 2 miles. [Inld]

(c) In vessels of less than 12 meters in length:

a masthead light, 2 miles;
a sidelight, 1 miles;
a towing light, 2 miles;
a white red, green or yellow all-round light, 2 miles.
a special flashing light, 2 miles. [Inld]

(d) In inconspicuous, partly submerged vessels or objects being towed;

a white all-round light; 3 miles.

____________________
David
USCG Licensed Master (1985 - current)
USSF (Retired)
==============================

Posted: 30 December 2009 09:13

Nick
MarSec Member

Joined:	29 December 2009
Location:	United Kingdom
Posts:	4
Status:	Offline

I guess the point is that you don't have to run dark to at least help subdue your lighting signature. Lighting that is visible to the naked eye could be retained to adhere to the COLREGs but the infra red signature in which the goggles are particularily sensitive could be eliminated.

I suppose anything that can be done would help.

____________________
Nick

Posted: 11 March 2010 16:17

tomvpowell
MarSec Member

Joined:	11 March 2010
Location:
Posts:	5
Status:	Offline

David wrote: Nick wrote: Hi, I was wondering if anyone knew how the ships are detected by pirates? Is it through radio, RADAR, are the journeys logged somewhere or is it just visually?

I would be interested in your comments.

Best regards,

Nick

Nick,

Welcome to the forum. Great question. The pirates generally rely on the fact that the ships are utilizing well known shipping lanes and are therefore predictable. They also utilize radio relays from outpost vessels and other craft that are plying the waters.

The tactic of using motherships may provide the pirates with RADAR capabilities. Several photos of suspected "motherships" do show that some have RADAR antennae mounted.

Hopefully some of the other members will join in and share their knowledge as well.

Cheers,

Are the pirates not using hijacked ship's technology against new victims also to find and track vessels?

____________________
http://www.begbies-traynorgroup.com/security-risk/our-services/maritime-security.aspx

Posted: 11 March 2010 21:59

David
Plank Owner

Joined:	18 November 2009
Location:	Fort Lauderdale, Florida USA
Posts:	112
Status:	Offline

tomvpowell wrote: David wrote: Nick wrote: Hi, I was wondering if anyone knew how the ships are detected by pirates? Is it through radio, RADAR, are the journeys logged somewhere or is it just visually?

I would be interested in your comments.

Best regards,

Nick

Nick,

Welcome to the forum. Great question. The pirates generally rely on the fact that the ships are utilizing well known shipping lanes and are therefore predictable. They also utilize radio relays from outpost vessels and other craft that are plying the waters.

The tactic of using motherships may provide the pirates with RADAR capabilities. Several photos of suspected "motherships" do show that some have RADAR antennae mounted.

Hopefully some of the other members will join in and share their knowledge as well.

Cheers,

Are the pirates not using hijacked ship's technology against new victims also to find and track vessels?

I'm sure they are using every piece of electronics at their disposal, but the captured ships are anchored hundreds of miles from where the hijack action takes place. They are likely stripping off the gear and reusing it on the motherships. That's a given.

It is the motherships and the spotter boats (via radio/sat relay) that enable the pirates to track victims. They can also make use of AIS to track potential victims if within range. Some ships will refuse to disable AIS while operating; even where recommended in high risk transit areas.

The pirates are smarter than many will admit. They employ typical insurgent-like behavior that makes it hard for conventional forces to counter. They are not going to use radar if the radar signal can be detected by the patrol ships. Remember, just like tracer bullets, Radar signals work both ways. Same with radio xmitters.

Like in Afghanistan, the typical badguy will use low powered portable radios with directional antennae and form a relay of numerous stations to prevent long range signal detection. Been there. Seen it.

cheers

____________________
David
USCG Licensed Master (1985 - current)
USSF (Retired)
==============================

Current time is 12:31
Maritime Security Forum > General Discussion > Ships, Boats, and Vessels > Detection	Top

Lead Theme By: Di @ UltraBB
UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2008 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.1452 seconds (4% database + 96% PHP). 34 queries executed.